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Staggering thought for the day
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Staggering thought for the day
According to Wikipedia:
Now, it only has a BBC citation for that last snippet, but what a statistic. 50% of human protein from ammonia derived fertilisers, made using fossil fuel hydrogen. Where is the room for debate over whether a population of 9bn will be sustainable ?
The Haber process is important today because the fertilizer generated from ammonia is responsible for sustaining one-third of the Earth's population. It is estimated that half of the protein within human beings is made of nitrogen that was originally fixed by this process
Now, it only has a BBC citation for that last snippet, but what a statistic. 50% of human protein from ammonia derived fertilisers, made using fossil fuel hydrogen. Where is the room for debate over whether a population of 9bn will be sustainable ?
Chilli-head- Admin and Boss man
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Re: Staggering thought for the day
CH - can you put into a short snappy sentence what the Haber process is (for us non-scientists)?
Dandelion- Admin
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Re: Staggering thought for the day
For those who didn't study chemistry at "A" level, or paid even less attention than I did
It is a process to produce ammonia (NH3) by combining nitrogen and hydrogen.
Nitrogen comes from air, but it is not very reactive. The process uses a catalyst to cause it to react with hydrogen. The major source of the hydrogen is from methane, natural gas.
The significance of this is that the ammonia made by the Haber process is reactive enough to produce other nitrogen compounds. It is the first step in producing nitrate fertilisers.
It is a process to produce ammonia (NH3) by combining nitrogen and hydrogen.
Nitrogen comes from air, but it is not very reactive. The process uses a catalyst to cause it to react with hydrogen. The major source of the hydrogen is from methane, natural gas.
The significance of this is that the ammonia made by the Haber process is reactive enough to produce other nitrogen compounds. It is the first step in producing nitrate fertilisers.
Chilli-head- Admin and Boss man
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Re: Staggering thought for the day
Thanks, that's really helpful.
Dandelion- Admin
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Re: Staggering thought for the day
I had a thought about the Haber process.
The basic problem is that it requires a lot of pressure and takes a lot of energy (partly to create the pressure).
Consider the ocean. There is plenty of energy out there free for the taking (wind, wave, PV), and plenty of room to be away from the NIMBY's.
And also, there is no shortage of pressure, all you need to do is go down: you would not need a strong pressure vessel because the forces would be in equilibrium.
Hydrogen can be produced at depth by hydrolysis, Nitrogen would have to be pumped down, but that is not difficult.
The problem I am stumped on is that it is a hot process, and the deep ocean is cold, so you would need a lot of insulation, and insulation is usually pretty buoyant...
The basic problem is that it requires a lot of pressure and takes a lot of energy (partly to create the pressure).
Consider the ocean. There is plenty of energy out there free for the taking (wind, wave, PV), and plenty of room to be away from the NIMBY's.
And also, there is no shortage of pressure, all you need to do is go down: you would not need a strong pressure vessel because the forces would be in equilibrium.
Hydrogen can be produced at depth by hydrolysis, Nitrogen would have to be pumped down, but that is not difficult.
The problem I am stumped on is that it is a hot process, and the deep ocean is cold, so you would need a lot of insulation, and insulation is usually pretty buoyant...
Hairyloon- Posts : 649
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Re: Staggering thought for the day
Separate those concepts. Yes, presumably possible to create giant floating factories using wind and/or wave action for the power source to power the Haber process. We can't use such facilities as power sources connected to the grid (too far out) but for making on site use of the energy, yes.
But no reason/purpose to use the depths for the pressure. Saves nothing (think about it a little). In any case it is only the net losses in the compression/expansion cycle that take energy.
However -- the Haber process is described in terms of its main use now. Wasn't developed to produce nitrates for fertilizer but nitrates to make explosives so Germany would be able to wage war even blockaded from sources of nitrates. Made WWI possible.
But no reason/purpose to use the depths for the pressure. Saves nothing (think about it a little). In any case it is only the net losses in the compression/expansion cycle that take energy.
However -- the Haber process is described in terms of its main use now. Wasn't developed to produce nitrates for fertilizer but nitrates to make explosives so Germany would be able to wage war even blockaded from sources of nitrates. Made WWI possible.
Mike- Posts : 484
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Location : Step by Step Farm, Berkshire Mtns, Massachusetts, USA
Re: Staggering thought for the day
That was the main thrust of the idea.Mike wrote:Separate those concepts. Yes, presumably possible to create giant floating factories using wind and/or wave action for the power source to power the Haber process. We can't use such facilities as power sources connected to the grid (too far out) but for making on site use of the energy, yes.
If nothing else, it saves building a pressure vessel, and I'm missing how you pump it to pressure without energy.But no reason/purpose to use the depths for the pressure. Saves nothing (think about it a little).
Hairyloon- Posts : 649
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Re: Staggering thought for the day
Ahh yes. I should add that I started this thread because I find the amazing claim - 50 % of the nitrogen in human protein having being fixed by the Haber process - provides an interesting insight into how sustainable the human population is, or rather isn't.
I didn't mean in any way to glorify the work of Fritz Haber, who contributed to both explosive production and poison gas development. It is perhaps ironic, though that while is it is not uncommon for harm to come by accident from work done with good intentions, Haber acheived the rather less common reverse - did something to the good whilst intending harm.
I didn't mean in any way to glorify the work of Fritz Haber, who contributed to both explosive production and poison gas development. It is perhaps ironic, though that while is it is not uncommon for harm to come by accident from work done with good intentions, Haber acheived the rather less common reverse - did something to the good whilst intending harm.
Chilli-head- Admin and Boss man
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Re: Staggering thought for the day
Damn. I was planning to start up making explosives. :?Chilli-head wrote:Ahh yes. I should add that I started this thread because I find the amazing claim - 50 % of the nitrogen in human protein having being fixed by the Haber process - provides an interesting insight into how sustainable the human population is, or rather isn't.
The population is entirely sustainable, we just need to shift all the Haber plants onto sustainable energy sources.
Hairyloon- Posts : 649
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Re: Staggering thought for the day
Hairyloon wrote:
Damn. I was planning to start up making explosives. :?
Be very careful if you start playing with nitrates and all that Glycerol you have. Very tricky business, that
Chilli-head- Admin and Boss man
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