Not yet a hot topic, eh?

by Penny 13th November 2009, 1:24 pm

Just in case somebody pops in, I've got a question/topic or two we might put up if there's interst.

Since we humans evolved on Planet Earth and Planet Earth is covered by an ecospheric system which has been Named Gaian, that obviously means we're part of the body of that living ecosphere, right?

Well -- what was our original "place" in the original Gaian system? We must have been, initially at least, a part of a working ecosphere. So what good were we?

Over the years I've come up with some ideas but could certainly use some help.

Also, why do you believe so many people are so easy to fool by the advertising industry? (and politicians, etc.) Why do we humans let ourselves be led around by the nose, working away our lives for coin only to spend it on unsatisfying garbage which leaves us feeling cheated and poorer by the year? It's a great puzzle.

I like people but being human is not an easy thing to do well, in my opinion. Come on, cheer me up!!

Penny

by windymiller 14th November 2009, 12:33 pm

Good question, have to think about that a while first, probably need to understand how chimps fit in to their natural environment, what they eat and if they spread seeds etc?

I am of the opinion the largest failure of mankind is to understand the human as an animal (mammal), although I know a few books have been written and there is a TV programme on at the moment around this subject, but usually they are around the hip areas such as relationships etc.

I think that the whole design of modern life could be improved dramatically if in these designs the human animal was catered for as the priority and the 'civilised' creature secondary.

To take one example out of many areas, adults are intimidated by groups of youths.

Youths group together as an animal instinct for protection/safety, adults are supposed to be put off that is the idea. So we shouldnt be surprised by the emotion we feel.

In modern design the important thing is this is recognised, it will happen and is not likely to change in the future, so the important issue is they do not come in to contact in an area if possible where people are forced to pass the congregated group.

Build something where the kids are still safe, want to congregate but arent blocking a pathway and are sufficiently far from this path to make adults feel at ease.

I think loads of societies problems could be solved if the human animal instinct was fully understood, accepted and applied to modern life.

Herding an animal instinct?

Good post Penny.

by Penny 20th November 2009, 3:59 pm

I agree that respecting our mammalian and herd/pack nature would probably be a step in the right direction.

Folks I know call the way kids run together "packs". There are "kid packs" and "teen packs". Figuring out how to keep them safe and entertained tends to be part of our goal. They don't really want us doing that too obviously.

Bo-o-ring!!

I teach magic classes to kids at get-togethers. Then they get to play with that. It's not expensive and they can take it wherever they go. So far I haven't seen too much mischief come of it. They're good kids. My friends are pretty mellow and we look out for each other and each other's kids.

I just wish teens didn't have so much angst. I always thought that was one of the most rotten times of life. But then, some people really enjoy it. Go figure!

Question

Ever since my kids were in their teens (a long time ago :cheers: ) I've believed that young adults need Youth Houses. And jobs. They need to go to school some and have jobs some. Like apprenticeships. Not necessarily in some field they're going to work in later but something they can see will be useful later in life. Cooking, carpentry, stuff like that. Where they make things to sell to other people to support the Youth House. Yes, I believe they could literally support themselves, living communally. It's only temporary -- a few years of their lives before they finish schooling and either head off on their own as workers or go one to higher education and eventual careers. But most teens don't have a sense that anything they do is important -- apart from stuff they get in trouble for. It's not bad to have a sense that what you do is actually meaningful. And if your teen-pack compadres are the ones who will be suffering and cross it's not so easy to goof off.

Anyway, while teen packs can be irritating, I find them amusing. It makes it very difficult to be a High School substitute teacher.

by Compostwoman 20th November 2009, 5:32 pm

I sometimes work with young adults/older teens and find that they rapidly drop the "cool" attitudes and general chippyness when given real, meaningful tasks to do. Gathering firewood, making a fire, putting up shelters , prepping food, cooking etc...give them some responsibility and they become responsible....show them a bit of trust and they become trust worthier..

not everytime, of course...but it is suprising how quickly bored yobbish teens can become co operative and friendly!

Although perhaps just having an adult listen to them and be interested in them is unusual ?

by Hairyloon 7th January 2010, 9:51 am

Penny wrote:Well -- what was our original "place" in the original Gaian system? We must have been, initially at least, a part of a working ecosphere. So what good were we?

Your question suggests some kind of intelligence involved in the design process.

There are a few good theories on Hominid evolution. There are two that I like and will share with you now.

The first is the Naked ape theory, which suggests that we were semi-aquatic.
It explains a few things, not least the relative lack of hair, and presence of blubber.

Another theory suggests that we evolved eating the leftovers from hunters on the plains.
Now once the lions and coyotes have finished, there ain't a lot left: just the really tough bones.
But if you can work out how to use a hammer, then you can get into those and get the yummy marrow.
Which gives us a good rich diet, and an evolutionary pressure to develop tools.

by Hairyloon 7th January 2010, 10:03 am

Penny wrote:I agree that respecting our mammalian and herd/pack nature would probably be a step in the right direction.

Harness the gang mentality of our yoof culture you mean?

Why do these gangs of yoofs do what they do? What do they want?
Largely 'cos they're bored, and they want respec'. (Or so I am led to believe).

So why doesn't the wider community officially recognise the gangs, and give out awards for the ones they most respect?

Most of these gangs have defined their turf: give them some motivation for putting their turf into good order.

by Mike 7th January 2010, 3:54 pm

Hairyloon wrote:
Your question suggests some kind of intelligence involved in the design process.
Not really. A "design process" does no necessarily require "intelligence" to work.
There are a few good theories on Hominid evolution. There are two that I like and will share with you now.

The first is the Naked ape theory, which suggests that we were semi-aquatic.
It explains a few things, not least the relative lack of hair, and presence of blubber.
There are other explanations for our hairlessness. We are not so weak as many modern interpretations suggest but for one of our strengths heat dissipation is important. We can "run down" many herbivores over the course of hours/days

Another theory suggests that we evolved eating the leftovers from hunters on the plains.
Now once the lions and coyotes have finished, there ain't a lot left: just the really tough bones.
But if you can work out how to use a hammer, then you can get into those and get the yummy marrow.
Which gives us a good rich diet, and an evolutionary pressure to develop tools.
I think that grossly underestimates the ability of a band of humans to drive a hunter or scavangers off the fixed position of a kill that cannot be easily dragged off. Does not require modern weaponry. A band of humans each carrying a half dozen of so quarter kilo rocks can produce quite a deadly "hailstorm" to make that spot very uncomfortable for the hunter. Or a half dozen grown males each with a fire hardened pointed stick. Coyote size scavangers cannot stand against even a couple adults with clubs.

Cannot so easily explain the differences between us and our close kin. There are groups of bonobos (P. trogdolytus) that use wooden spears and stone chopper tools. Of course the Pan/Homo genus distinction isn't really justified in biological terms. They are our fellow "hominids"

\

by Mike 7th January 2010, 4:13 pm

Hairyloon wrote:

Why do these gangs of yoofs do what they do? What do they want?
Largely 'cos they're bored, and they want respec'. (Or so I am led to believe).
So why doesn't the wider community officially recognise the gangs, and give out awards for the ones they most respect?
Most of these gangs have defined their turf: give them some motivation for putting their turf into good order.

Not because "bored" but the natural form of human organization? What we might be "hard wired" for? But as to why not allow it to flourish that's easy. Yes they would evolve to putting their turf into "good order". But human organizations of this sort do not allow competitors. In the natural state, called for space between groups, "no man's lands" and these might in fact once have served a useful "purpose"* (I am not saying intelligent design -- misses the whole point of evolutionary process which eliminates what doesn't work and favors what does).

But it's not just these gangs that won't tolerate competition. The dominant gang won't either (that's the main society and its rulers). Oh, you didn't recognize it was also a "gang", just bigger?

* The theory here is that the spacing out meant that most of environment was not used by humans under normal conditions as "too dangerous to go there". Left a resevoir of ecological resource that would be available when unusual weather, etc, caused problems. With the neighboring bands also too busy scrabbling for food to fight the "no man's land" beocmes temporarily exploitable. The unpleasant thought is that those groups of bands which fought with each other (and so left these reserve areas) might have fared better in the long run than those areas where bands of humans lived at peace with neighboring bands. Might now be part of our "wiring".

by Hairyloon 7th January 2010, 11:44 pm

Mike wrote:
Hairyloon wrote:Another theory suggests that we evolved eating the leftovers from hunters on the plains...
[b]I think that grossly underestimates the ability of a band of humans to drive a hunter or scavangers off the fixed position of a kill...

No. We are not talking about humans, we are talking about the very early Hominids: around 4 million years back. Maybe Australopithecus ("Lucy" being the famous example). These are less than half our size.

Cannot so easily explain the differences between us and our close kin. There are groups of bonobos (P. trogdolytus) that use wooden spears and stone chopper tools.

I missed a grand opportunity this year.
The Max-Planck-Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology were advertising on an arborists site for professional climbers to help study Bonobos. Unfortunately the job had gone before I'd seen it.

by Compostwoman 7th January 2010, 11:46 pm

Not too sure what Bonobos would make of an Urangutang.......!

by Hairyloon 7th January 2010, 11:59 pm

Compostwoman wrote:Not too sure what Bonobos would make of an Urangutang.......!

They'd probably be no more bemused than you lot were. Wink

by Compostwoman 8th January 2010, 12:04 am

What, we ( well *I*, anyway..) thought you were lovely!

by Hairyloon 9th January 2010, 11:53 pm

Compostwoman wrote:What, we ( well *I*, anyway..) thought you were lovely!

Not at all sure how to answer that. :?
You all went a bit silly over at t'otherplace. Wink

by Compostwoman 10th January 2010, 12:31 pm

Nah, we were just being honest!

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